edenfalling | wherein Liz talks about genfic and nonstandard sexual orientations

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wherein Liz talks about genfic and nonstandard sexual orientations

I feel weirdly confessional today.

So. I am going to talk about nonstandard sexual orientations, romance, one reason I like genfic, and why I think there isn't ever as much genfic in the real world as in my ideal world.

First of all, so we all know where we stand, I will tell you my own sexual orientation. Insofar as I have one, I am heterosexual with noticeable bisexual tendencies. To get more detailed, I am more likely to be sexually attracted to a very hot man than to a very hot woman, but I find more women attractive in general, and I have no real preference once I get past that initial 'guh' reaction.

But mostly I'm asexual. In other words, I'm not particularly sexually attracted to anybody. Sex and sexual attraction are just not things I think about unless somebody more or less explicitly points them out to me. I am also not usually romantically attracted to anybody, and again, romance is not something I think about unless it's specifically pointed out.

I do not have any sexual trauma in my past, nor do I feel like I'm missing anything, so anyone who thinks asexuality is somehow wrong or sad can go jump in the lake now, thanks. (And yes, I do have sexual responses -- I appreciate good smut and erotica, and I get dirty jokes -- but they don't dominate me, you know? They don't sneak up and ambush me; instead, I can take them or leave them. And mostly I leave them, because they're more bother than they're worth.)

I used to wonder why on earth so many people I know (including my own sister) were so obsessed with romantic/sexual relationships. They'd talk about their new love interests all the time, and be utterly broken up when things didn't work out, and I'd listen to them go on about all this for hours. I'd make sympathetic noises, but all the time I'd be thinking, "If love is so painful and so much trouble, why bother? What are you getting out of it that's worth all this? What are you getting from romantic love that you can't get from strong friendship love? (Well, obviously, sex. But that can't be worth all this.)" And so on.

I almost never notice when people flirt with me, because I don't start flirtations and I don't consider people as potential romantic/sexual partners, so the idea that other people might be considering me that way is always a surprise.

Anyway. That's the background on me. Now let's talk about stories.

See, I think most people read stories and look for potential romantic/sexual tension, because that's one of the important things most people look for in real life. I don't see romance and sex as important, so I don't tend to 'see' them in stories unless they're made explicit in the text. (No, not that kind of explicit -- get your mind out of the gutter!) Once other people have pointed out the possibilities, I can see them just fine, but I almost never notice them without prompting -- left to my own devices I would imagine all the people living completely platonic lives. Oh, if you pressed me I'd say that most of them would end up in romantic/sexual relationships sooner or later, just because that's the way things tend to work, but that's not a direction my mind goes naturally.

(I think this is one reason I don't have OTPs. I don't see romance as particularly important, so I find it hard to get worked up about X and Y's Undying!True!Love and all that. There are other reasons I don't have OTPs, but they're not relevant here.)

Partly because I don't consider romantic relationships the be-all and end-all of people's lives, and partly because so many people do seem to think that -- or at least, that's the impression I get from reading their stories -- I find myself longing for stories that explore non-sexual relationships. Like friendship. Mentor-student. Parent-child. Coworkers. Siblings. Enemies. Rivals. Distant family. Etc. I want stories that reflect my experience of the world, in which, damn it, not everybody is going to go around lusting after people and falling in love and sighing over romantic interests and things like that.

But most people like love. They like to read about it. They like to write it. Hell, I write people having sexual and romantic attraction -- even having sex, sometimes -- because people do that sort of thing, and it would be lying to claim otherwise.

And that's okay. Romance and sex are good things, in their way.

But I wish that people would sit down, think seriously about things, and realize that not all stories about a close emotional relationship between two people need to make that relationship sexual and/or romantic. In fact, I think keeping most relationships non-sexual is more true to life, since I have not noticed most people jumping into bed with all their close friends, nor abandoning their social networks just because they currently have a love interest.

...

I had more of a point in mind when I started writing this, but whatever.

Thoughts?

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For what it's worth, I'm much the same. I don't 'see' relationships around me; I never quite realized how odd this apparently was until my co-workers tried matching me up with someone, and I could not get them to understand that I wasn't interested, had never been interested in anyone in fact, and was perfectly happy with this state of affairs.

And I've encountered the same thing in fanfiction. Personally, I do like reading romances... of a sort. One!True!Love, I tend to find boring and flat. But if it's a story about a very deep and powerful relationship... that, I like. Be it a friendship or a romance, siblings or parents, teachers or enemies, as long as I feel like I'm reading about a powerful connection between people, I usually like it.

Well, with certain exceptions. A story that seems to assume that, just because people are in love, they must be constantly going at it like bunnies... tends to make my head have long and interesting (if slightly painful) discussions with my desk.

To be honest, one of the most wonderful romance stories I've ever read... was actually one that you wrote. I think the title was Definitions of Romance? About Harry and Hermione, and how people would say that they were unromantic, but that wasn't really the case. That story just... struck a chord. ^_^

I wrote "Definitions of Romance" because I'd gotten absolutely sick of One!True!Love and because none of the marriages in my family look anything like romance novels.

Not even my Uncle Charles and Aunt Ji-lan, who actually kind of have a romance novel plotline: they liked each other, but her parents arranged a marriage and she felt she had to respect that; she had a kid and later divorced; they met again and still liked each other; and they married and had another kid together. (Swear to god, I'm not making that up.) But they are so Not!Romance that it's actually kind of funny.

*chuckles* Likewise. In addition... it's weird, but the one thing that will throw me out of a story is pet-names, for that exact same reason: my parents never used them, so they sound incredibly fake to me...

So a lot of the personality quirks that you've mentioned in this update are quirks that I also have, from being mostly hetero-but-with-strong-bi leanings to not being at all "romantic." I've never really considered myself asexual, just not traditionally "romantic." I always thought that was more a matter of being pragmatic/practical than being asexual. I'm just not interested in getting flowers. (I'm into chocolate, but that's because I adore chocolate, and I would totally love it if random strangers on the street gave me candy.)

It seems to me that a lot of people like to talk about love, or write about it, and a LOT of people seem to pine over it, but almost no one actually experiences it the way that movies or books or whatever describe it. I tend to think of romantic love Romeo and Juliet style as the province of people who are pretty much deluded: they're more obsessing about someone than knowing and really loving them. I think romantic lovers are blind to the faults of their significant others, and if a lover won't admit to the problems in the lovee, then maybe it's not really love. Real love is loving someone in spite of their flaws instead of excusing them or denying them to the point where the lover's mental image of the lovee has no basis in reality.

Of the strong, stable relationships I've seen which seem to actually work, it usually is much more like "friends with benefits" than Romeo and Juliet. I've never really had a "romantic" relationship, and I don't think I want to. I'd much rather love a friend in a way that includes sex and romance, because if whoever I'm in love with isn't someone I'd want as a good friend in the first place then it's not someone I want to love at all.

Considering human history as a whole, I think marriages based on romantic love are something of an aberration. This is not to say that romantic love is a bad thing, just that I really doubt it's the be-all and end-all of life.

The thing is, I'm not just uninterested in romance, I'm also mostly uninterested in sex, at least as it relates to me personally in real life. That's why I say I'm mostly asexual. It's the combination of the two factors, see? :-)

You know, it only occurred to me to read to me after I'd responded that hey, maybe the blue font in your original statement was a hyperlink and maybe I should click it to see what asexual might actually mean in the context. I was thinking of asexual like those organisms that split in half to reproduce, or like being so completely without a sex drive that a person wishes they could reproduce by splitting in half. So yes I see now why you say you're mostly asexual.

I don't think romantic love is bad, really, or at least it doesn't have to be, but I just don't get it. Sometimes being a little bit deluded can go a long way to making the world better.

Marriages based on romantic love are an aberration -- the idea that romantic love should be the sole driving force behind a marriage only really came into being in the last century, perhaps less.

As for it being the be-all & end-all of life...

...try spending a little while around some woman who is constantly chasing boyfriends. And who thinks you actually care about how much of a jerk the current one is. ::has found such to be amazingly oblivious to all polite hints that you are not interested and are not, in fact, their friend -- much to your delight::

Worst part of all of this is that one of my Grandmothers is very much into this luv -- it certainly ain't love -- and has successfully caused my sole aunt that side of my family to basically ruin her life & it's getting passed down to my only female cousin that side (the aunt's daughter)...

...and I'm expected to fall into the same trap.

One of my college roommates was like that for a while. Then, fortunately, she met a guy she liked with whom she could also be friends, so that relationship worked much better. In fact, they got married last year. So there is hope, I think. :-)

However, I'm having a repeat of that experience with one of my coworkers, M., who's a great person but has already, this year, gone through at least four romantic relationships, one of which was a kind of unofficial engagement. (I knew that wasn't going to last, but didn't say anything until it fell apart on its own and she was willing to listen.) It makes me sad, because she's always getting hurt when things fall apart, but I don't know any way to point out that she's probably approaching her problems from the wrong direction. *sigh*

Doesn't sound like they've yet topped my aunt -- who met a guy at a New Year's party, got engaged on Feb. 14th (because it was sooo romantic), and married him.

After his divorce went through, that is. Y'see, he was married at the time to a friend of my Mom's, who was (in the end) happy to be rid of him...

...the surprise wasn't that my aunt and the jerk divorced, it's that they stayed married for so long.

That's a really interesting point you have there. It's very true, too, romantic relationships aren't the only thing out there, and it does seem to kind of take over in fanfiction for some reason. *blinksu* Weird. Part of it, obviously, is the author writing what they wish would happen to them (hello Mary-Sue!), but even the ones who don't fall into that trap can get side-tracked.

I do enjoy gen-fics, or fics where they aren't consentrating on who's falling for who, and pairings are just on the side. They're *there*, and they're mentioned, and yes, they affect some of the character interaction, but it's not the point of the story. One of my favorite authors is Vathara, and all her fics are... well, I guess you could say action oriented, though there's plenty of depth to them. *grin* Not to mention that she's the Goddess of Cross-overs, 'cause I've yet to find anyone who could manage to mix that many 'verses together and make it work, with all the characters still IC. And she has *plot*, which not everyone gets, sadly.

*loves on Vathara* I'm liking her latest Rurouni Kenshin kick, but I really wish she'd write some more Yu-Gi-Oh! one of these days. I am very partial to people who write Kaiba genfic, and to people who show Yugi and Yami having a very strong bond without immediately having to make it sexual as well.

I hope she does too, 'cause it'd be interesting to see what happens to Bakura and Yuugi after Roll the Bones. *grin* And Kaiba too, but he flew back to Domino, so...

Probably an awful thing for me to say, but... I don't. Leaving aside my unfamiliarity with YuGiOh, I'm totally in love with the entire NightLife fusion setting, and, well, Dragon!Kenshin and Sword!Battousai and the Kaoru powerup I can just see waiting in the wings if I squint and... purr. Purr, I say.

As for romance, well, while my view of it makes perfect sense to me, I'm also well aware that it's off from the standard.

...I'm trying to figure out how to explain and it's coming out all jumbled. Sorry.

Um. The very first thing I'd call important about loving another person would be that they are another person, that their identity is their choice... that loving them doesn't mean you own them. The next is that love isn't a zero-sum game. You don't take some away from one person and give it to another - in the first place, it's not as though you can control it anyway, and in the other, they're seperate people... The third is that sex is a completely different subject. The only thing making one imply the other is cultural conditioning.

So, in other words, I think True Love is when you want to fuck your best friend.

Ja, -n
(*would've said more, but that was too good an ending line to pass up*)

...I want Vathara to write EVERYTHING. I want more Kenshin AU, more Urban Legends, more Foreign X-Change, more random BtVS things, something else with Gundam Wing, etcetera ad infinitum. Because I have yet to not enjoy her work, even when I have no damn clue about half the series involved. :-)

I also agree with you about friendship being the best and most lasting basis for romantic/sexual love. It's just that, you know, I'm not out looking to convert friendships that way.

If you had an isolated fandom and got to it early, maybe you could mold it to your genfic will, like the way Ranma fandom slanted towards crossovers (after the Bet I think) or a small fandom I know of is almost all crack humor fics- people are influenced by what came before. (That small fandom depresses me; the paring names are ridiculous, the stories are ridiculous, the average age is a few years below mine at least and the maturity level is even worse. I love the cannon, but am too afraid to really step into the fandom, which is mostly dead now anyway. sigh.)

Also, I envy the state of asexuality and sympathize with how boys are potentially more attractive, but the girls in general are always looking better, because they're taught to take care of themselves and even to show off. (At least that's how I try to explain things to myself, can't say if that's what you meant.)

It actually doesn't have much to do with personal hygiene factors -- I just think women, on average, tend to be better looking than men. Possibly this is down to evolutionary factors, with men being more visually oriented than women, so it's more important for women to look sexy?

I don't write fast enough to be a decisive influence on anything. *sigh*

Girls are better looking, but they smell wrong. ;)
Ah, pheremones. How you rule my life.

I have actually often wondered why there's such an overwhelming preponderance of non-genfic in fandom, when that clearly doesn't represent real life.

None of the reasons I've thought of quite explain it, but here's a few:

(a) The old, 'mm, it's hot' factor.
(b) The old 'OTP!' or at least 'wouldn't they soo work?' factor.
(c) The fandoms themselves usually tell stories that are overwhelmingly gen. A minority of the characters may have romances, one or two of which may be fleshed out, because the plot takes precedence. Maybe fanfic is there to give all the characters and all the pairings a chance?
(d) Related to above. If humans do think about sex every x seconds where x is a small number, then in a way maybe all this fic is representing 'reality', because the rule of fanfiction is that everything that can happen, will happen.
(e) Taboos. If we have any sort of a kinky side at all, it's easier to find it (fictionally) in fanfic than just about anywhere else. Plus, the whole women-writing-for-women stuff.
(f) Sex/romance can be a distraction, or a replacement. It can also be seen as going all the way. So the deep relationships you mentioned as being the kind you like to see in genfic... get taken to their extreme. To quote from The History Boys, "the transmission of knowledge is itself an erotic experience." So, mentors and students get it on/fall in love.

Points A through E make perfect sense to me, especially point C. Point F is where I lose you a little, because on a gut level, I don't really get why adding sex to a relationship somehow makes it deeper or better. It just makes it different. I can see that a lot of people DO think sex is sort of the final factor in a 'full' relationship, or whatever, but that's not really how I'm wired.

This is...complicated. Really.
I don't think i am asexual, as i love smut and all that stuff, but i prefer best friends to "Love". of course, my definition of friends is very meaningful, so i may have blurry line. The fact that i never made the effort to go and look for a relationship suck, too.I mean, some of my old friend i would have liked to have a different relationships with them, but then again, not.
It's the same with fanfics. I am a Harry/Hermione shipper, but your fic is one of the best of the genre i like, and, well, i realise i prefer the friendship moment between them to the romantics moments. But they must be best friends, meaning that there is no one they prefer. of course, their can be other best friends, but not more, just equal.
Sigh.
Ramblling again, am i?

No worries!

There are, I think, degrees of asexuality. I do have a sexual orientation and some kinks and whatnot, but they're low-intensity and only really affect my reading/writing habits, not the rest of my life.

For myself, I'm pretty heterosexual. I can read (and even like) slash pairings in fiction, but thinking about it in relation to myself is kinda... 'icky'. I like mentor and close friendship stories a lot, but I'm always up for fics involving sex, whether fluffy or angsty - except Hyuuga and Uchiha incest, which creeps me out.

Also... Vathara's NightLife is amazing <3

-- Guile

What I'm saying isn't that I dislike fics with sex in, just that I don't see why ALL close relationship fics NEED to have sex in. It seems to me that writers tend to turn fictional relationships sexual by default, when I think a lot of the relationships they describe don't need the sex, or would be changed by sex in ways the writers don't acknowledge.

Also, this is turning into the 'we love Vathara!' thread... Oh well, nothing wrong with that! :-)

thank. you.
well..hem. I'm definitly het. I"m soemtime rather annoyed by people's dendency to turn the kid nof gen relationships into the field of romance. It's as if it's 'duh', obvious that those two aren't just tutoring each other/friends since childhood and so forth. especially the hate-actually-is-love-reversed one. i'm nearly allergic to it (remember potc2? something about Turner/NOttingham *sigh*) . just as allergic as the best male friends automatically being lovers. I'd like to see more stories wher sirius and james or sirius and remus are good friends, or even just classmates. Or hero and sidekick. I've probably had an overdose of fannish discussions while I was still in groups (which was also a time when most cannon stuff neither confirmed nor denied sexual orientations, and I realize nothing is still set in stone and in some universes it's perhaps even intentionally going towards slash). I don't focus on romance in general. I don't have otp's either. I have some favourites I'd read more about (but I'm mostly reading my friends' stuff these days anyway) but I liek plot and gen better than romance parts.

Exactly. The way that all close relationship are assumed to have unresolved sexual tension baffles me on some levels, because it privileges sex above all other forms of intimacy, which, frankly, does not jibe with my personal view of things. Sometimes people just aren't interested in each other that way!

And that's why I got sick of soem books befroe even reading them. i had too many folk say patrick o'brien'sstuff isslashy because of aubrey and maturin. (i knwo it's ufnair because maybe in this case it's intentional) however whe nmarion zimmer bradley has this scene of afeast in arthur's castle and someone insinuates that he and lancelot mightbe more tha nfriends i had to throw the book into another chair.
I am alomost disappinted that I discoverd the phenomenon of frodo/sam before istarted readign lotr. because when I got to read it and reached the scene whe he's asleep with his head on sam's lap i kne wthat was oen of the biggies inthat contingetn and jsut..I don't know...yo uget an a-ha erlebnis first and then the feeling of oh'oh but of course, *sigh*" drops in and I start to yawn.
But for some reason I just don't particuarly look for romance stories. notthe fluffy kissy ones or the vignets with just lust.

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wherein Liz talks about genfic and nonstandard sexual orientations

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