on story types, the nature of fanfiction, and the importance of trying new things

[edenfalling]

Today I got a review of "Guardian" that, while it makes me uncomfortable in certain ways (anyone who tells you they're completely happy about receiving criticism is lying -- I like the ability to fix stuff, but it's painful to admit that anything more serious than typos needs fixing), is polite, well written, and well thought out. However, the reviewer and I seem to be working from different assumptions, and since those assumptions are fairly basic to what I'm trying to do with "Guardian," I thought I'd talk about some of them.

Here's the review:

The quality of your writing is still good, possibly a little better than when you wrote Way of the Apartment Manager, but Guardian in Spite of Herself is not as good a fanfic due to content.

WotAM worked because readers could care about Yukiko because of her caring for Naruto, and then it was ok that a lot of the story was about her. However in GiSoH, Naruto's role has shrunk *even more* and not by having more stuff around Yukiko, who readers already have an attachment to, but because of too much material about stuff happening around Yukiko, Naruto and Sasuke.

Seriously, you can still have the plot proceed at the pace you've set without having to have scenes showing everything going on (like with Ginji, etc). For an original work, you can do whatever to give the cast equal time but that's not a good idea for fanfics because after a certain point, when the main characters of the fandom have effectively become minor characters (which is what's happened to Naruto and Sasuke), that you start to lose the point of the fandom.

We don't have to see Naga telling her Mom that she *has* to go on the mission despite her injuries. We don't have to see side characters we have no emotional investment in (like Ginji and Eiji). Naga is interesting, but it would be better if you don't write in scenes with her unless Yukiko, Naruto or Sasuke are also in that scene.

The main thing that made WotAM good was the interplay between Yukiko and Naruto and her internal conflict between doubt and her desire to become a better ninja. That's lost in Guardian in Spite of Herself - Yukiko has hardly had any interaction with both Naruto and Sasuke, which would have made for a very good initial hook, and there's too much other stuff going on. This is one of those cases where you seem a little too preoccupied with a good plot and have maybe lost sight of the primary appeal of your scenario.

You can either show less of the other material and focus more on the boys and Yukiko to keep up the pace of your plot, or slow down your plot and space the scenes of those lesser characters farther in between by having more material with the boys and/or Yukiko. Really, you did a great job in Apartment Manager of making your OC interesting and compelling, it's a shame that the focus on her and her interaction with the boys has become less important than proceeding with the plot.

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The most obvious thing to start out with is that yes, I have sidelined Naruto in "Guardian." I've also sidelined Yukiko. I've introduced a LOT of new original characters, and I will introduce several more before the story's over (albeit mostly in bit roles)... and the story isn't anywhere near over -- we're only just getting out of the introductory phase.

So for people who liked the focus on Yukiko and Naruto's relationship, and Yukiko's character arc, "Guardian" will not be nearly as enjoyable.

This is true. I do not dispute this.

However, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. You see, "Guardian" is very deliberately set up to be a different kind of story from "Apartment Manager". The first story was about one character's personal growth and the relationships among a small group of people. Nothing in it was really life-or-death, and there was a light-heartedness that I found very fun to write.

"Guardian," in contrast, is a story about how ninja society interacts with and impinges on the wider world. By its very nature, it's darker, it involves a larger cast, and it's not as personally focused on any single character or relationship. The themes of family and the importance of pursuing one's goals/dreams do carry over (the first one carries over because it seems to end up in everything I write, and the second is at the heart of the manga), but the overall tone and thrust of the stories is very different.

So yes, I know that my choices won't work for everyone who liked "Apartment Manager," but I knew what I was doing when I planned "Guardian," and I think it's an equally good story. It's just going for a different effect.

As for the argument about the nature of fandom and fanfiction, I think this is another instance of differing assumptions/definitions. I realize that most people read fanfiction because they want more of characters they like. I do this too. However, I also read fanfiction because I want more of a world I like. I want to see fictional worlds explained, explored, and filled in with all kinds of things the canon source can't (or shouldn't, for plot, pacing, or tone reasons) take the time to show.

My obsession with world-building was fairly clear in "Apartment Manager," but it was at the service of a character-driven story, so I tried hard to subordinate it. "Guardian" is a more plot-driven story, which gives me a bit of scope to step back from the characters and let the world breathe a little. (This is not to say that character motivations don't matter -- they matter very much! -- but they're taking a back seat to mission orders [Yukiko and Naga] or plans for complete social reform [Eiji]. Sasuke comes the closest to a purely character-driven arc, but even he's being shoved around by events outside his control.)

I'm trying to give equal focus to all the viewpoint characters because otherwise the story feels unbalanced to me. I realize that this downplays Naruto, Sasuke, and Yukiko. Again, that's because they're not the main focus of the story. I cannot say that enough. The focus of the story (or at least what I'm attempting to focus on) is the flaws and virtues (or costs and benefits) of the shinobi society portrayed in Naruto, explored through the specific examples of Itachi, Akatsuki, and Eiji on the one hand, and various 'good' protagonist ninja on the other. (Seichi, at the moment, could be used to argue for either side. So could Kakashi, come to that.)

I realize that sequels are often 'more of the same'. Sometimes that's okay. Sometimes that's all you want to write. I wanted to stretch myself, though, wanted to make use of more of the Naruto world.

I am very sorry if that's not what people wanted to read, but there's a certain point past which, if you're not writing what you want to write, you might as well give up.

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Anyway, it was a good review. It made me think, and it's good to articulate both what I'm trying to write and why I'm trying to write it.

Comments

[deprotonation.livejournal.com]

You can either show less of the other material and focus more on the boys and Yukiko to keep up the pace of your plot, or slow down your plot and space the scenes of those lesser characters farther in between by having more material with the boys and/or Yukiko. Really, you did a great job in Apartment Manager of making your OC interesting and compelling, it's a shame that the focus on her and her interaction with the boys has become less important than proceeding with the plot.

I really think this is the problem with bringing an ensemble cast into a fanfic, especially when the plot has them so far away from interacting. I'm definitely intrigued by how Eiji intends to utilize Akatsuki for something so separated from the group's manga focus on gaining power (becoming immortal?).

But with the addition of Gingi, Tetsuko, and the other few OCs or minor characters that may need to be (I would like to see ;3) fleshed out (Kurenai), some scenes might feel flat. If you introduced the newer characters slower to allow more time for characterization we could ease into them like we did with Naga in Apartment Manager. On the other hand would that be disrupting your plot line (?). Again, definitely interested in seeing what happens + seeing how you write because it helps me become a better writer.

[edenfalling]

Kurenai will be at least somewhat fleshed out, OR ELSE. *threatens outline* Ginji and Tetsuko will be fleshed out as well; their backstory is inextricably entwined with Eiji's, because I like the way the Naruto world often works in threes.

I know what you mean about easing characters in gradually. I am trying to do that -- there are quite a lot of people I haven't thrown at you even though they could legitimately have appeared by now! -- but I'm sure I'm failing in various places. Anyway, unless my outline changes dramatically on me with no warning, I only have two canon characters and maybe three semi-significant OCs left to introduce, and you've technically seen one of the OCs in "Apartment Manager" anyway. As I said, we're moving out of the introductory phase and into the...

Hmm. You know, my plot has five basic stages -- introduction, people moving around, drawing together, climax, and falling action -- but 'people moving around' isn't a very good phase name. 'Complication' might work better. Yes: introduction, complication, drawing together, climax, falling action.

Anyway! The point is, the rest of the story is mostly for plot and character development, not introducing even MORE people.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Hmm, was that a response you actually sent to her? It comes off as a bit abrupt.

(but, er, maybe you meant to be.)

OC-driven fics are an interesting phenomenon in fandom. I wonder how common they (the non-Sue ones, that is) really are?

[edenfalling]

Nah, she/he wasn't logged in, so I couldn't respond directly. I wouldn't have gone on so long if this were a direct response; I'm rambling because I'm trying to get my own thoughts in order.

...

I don't think OC-driven fics are particularly common in most fandoms, except in stories set before or after the main story timeline (whatever that may be). That's because most readers seem to be more interested in canon characters than canon worlds, which makes perfect sense, really. We're geared to pay attention to and have emotional reactions to people. It's hard to get equally attached to a setting without being able to physically experience it (and without being able to see it apart from the specific characters who inhabit it).

[baka-neko.livejournal.com]

I did wish you had followed up the joy Yukiko could have had trying to deal with Sasuke & Naruto at the same time because I am evil like that, but I've always appreciated the time and care you take to flesh out even the bit part characters, and make the world the fanfics inhabit a really organic, breathing place. In many ways, manga gets away with a lot -- a gesture, a look, and you already have an outline of a character. For writing, there is no lazy way to get around that. I'm glad to see Naga getting along better with her mother, and I appreciate the real-world logic employed; the world doesn't stop turning because the Uchiha clan has been slaughtered -- people have to go on, missions still need to be done, and now a killer has to be stopped.

I think the above reader simply isn't used to this kind of epic storytelling you're doing; in a novel, this would be the very minimum that was expected. I'm perfectly happy to enjoy the disparate plot threads, see how they draw together, and what kind of payoff they'll bring. All the best! :)

[edenfalling]

When I wrote the first snippets of "Guardian," back before I'd even finished "Apartment Manager," I didn't have plans beyond 'Yukiko has to deal with two brats, and they hate each other -- what fun!' Except that didn't really feel emotionally satisfying to me, and I didn't want to go off into a highly introspective story about healing Sasuke and dealing with a severely traumatized child. I also started thinking about the logistics of Itachi's murder spree, and the more I thought, the less sense it made. Of such things, plots are born.

Eiji's role in the story began with him as a functionally anonymous assassination target. Then I wanted to humanize him so as to create a bit of moral conflict. Then I wondered what he was doing that made Konoha decide he needed to die. Tying that together with moral conflicts, and with a system that could produce (and overlook) someone like Itachi, led me to start thinking about the underpinnings of the shinobi system, and how in many ways, it's not a good system AT ALL. It's not healthy for the ninja, and it's a permanent destabilizing influence on the region, since the shinobi need jobs, and as long as they're around, people are going to pay them to kill other people. It's hard to push through any significant reforms or innovations if disgruntled opponents can easily hire assassins.

I had originally intended Iruka to be one of the four POV characters, but he ended up with very little to do and he wasn't contributing thematically, so I cut him out. I wish I hadn't needed to do that -- he would have helped balance the many OCs -- but 'life continues as usual in Konoha' just isn't a very interesting plot line. The one noteworthy thing he does during this story works just as well if conveyed to other people via a letter, or presented as news upon their return to Konoha, so I decided to make that a potential sidestory instead.

...

Actually, the reviewer specifically noted that what I'm doing would work in original fiction; it just feels odd in fanfiction. This is doubtless true. I wrote original fiction long before I'd ever heard of fanfiction, and I think I carry over some habits I picked up when I had to create new characters for every story. In other words, if I need a character in a certain role/place, my first instinct is to create an OC, not to shoehorn a canon character into the hole. Therefore, I created Eiji rather than, say, sending Yukiko off to kill Gato a few years ahead of schedule. *shrug* This is probably a failing from a character-based view of fanfiction. From a world-based view of fanfiction, it's more or less a wash.

[(Anonymous)]

Now that I think about it, what "Guardian" reminds me most of is the Lord of the Rings story, with its switching between groups of characters that are interacting in different parts of the world.

And also because it was, first and foremost, a mileau story. Tolkien had made this amazing world, and so even such excellent characters as Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf and Gollum were sidelined at times to explore that world.

So, really, even if I do miss the interaction between Yukiko and her adopted little brother (and Iruka, and Naga, and Kakashi, and...), you have no fear of me abandoning the story.

And since I didn't mention it in my ff.net review - you are awesome.

That is all.

-- Guile

[edenfalling]

Thank you.

A milieu story? "Guardian" is a mish-mash of two separate fix-the-problem adventures, a character arc for Sasuke, and my desire to explore and explain bits of the Naruto world, so yes, there are definite milieu story aspects.

There will definitely be character interaction; it's just not the main focus this time.

[arkeus.livejournal.com]

Hum, there is one point i disagree with your reviwer: the problem, in my mind, is that the new characters are still drab, bland. I love yukiko, and your iruka and naga are very interesting. But the new ones seems too...telegraphed. Not enough feelings there, i think, and escusing the akatsuki isn't something i condon lightly.
Don't misunderstand me, i love your fic. And i love stories where there are new characters, as long as there still are some semi familiar faces (i wouldn't read HunterxHunter otherwise), but i can't help but feel disappointed by how you are weaving those new characters. The reason may be that i want those OC to have some link the the main character (naruto), and sometimes i feel the link is strenuous.

Sorry for my rant :/

[edenfalling]

I think we have a slight miscommunication here: I'm not trying to excuse Akatsuki. Amane Eiji is not part of Akatsuki, and he doesn't know their ultimate plans. He just knows that they're potentially willing to help him destabilize the system of hidden villages and shinobi clans that backs up the feudal power structure of the region, and helps keep infrastructure small and limited, among other things.

I will try to make that more clear in the story!

The link between the characters in Tengai and the canon characters is tenuous at the moment. You see, I had two choices. Either I didn't introduce Eiji until Yukiko reached Tengai, by which point he would feel very much like an afterthought, or I introduced him before any canon characters (or previously established OCs) met him, and risked having people wonder why they should care. As you can tell, I chose the second option. This is because I wanted to humanize Eiji, so that it's hard to write him off as a 'bad guy' whose death is completely justifiable, and because I wanted to explore the ramifications of the shinobi system, and it's helpful to have a viewpoint character who stands 'outside' the system and points out its flaws.

Now that I have most of my characters and situations introduced, I have time to slip in more subtle characterization as the story progresses. I hope that will make the OCs feel less 'telegraphed' to you.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the reviewer above had some good points but all in all I think that you have a good thing going with GiSoH.

Normally I don't like OC's because they mess with the plot to much and disrupt how a character would normally act AND they have no legitimate background stories EX: Sasuke and Itachi's long lost sister or Gaara's demon fiance (The uchiha girl(can't remember her name, sorry) iffed me at first but now because she doesn't mess with the canon characters to much she doesn't bother me)

Your OC's don't have that uncomfortable feeling about them because they don't overwhem the plot and the one's that do (Yukiko) somehow feel like they belong there while still following the same basic storyline of 'Naruto' (One time after reading WotAM I actually looked for Naga in the anime before I caught myself ^_^')

I don't mind the way that you introduce your characters because in a way it's a lot like the way some of the minor characters are introduced in 'Naruto'. They pop up, they're important for a while (and still important but in a non-important way after they're done), Then they dissapear again and we STILL don't know much about them (Anime-Iruka)

*Shrugs* Not ure if you's already heard that in differant words yet but I thought I'd put it up just to be sure (sorry if it's annoying!)

But then this is a 13 year old talking so what do I know...

-Lurker

[edenfalling]

Uchiha Tsukime, Naga's former partner, is (and I hate to say this, because it feels unfair to judge and segregate fictional people) basically a plot device, with a dash of characterization to make her plot device status less blatantly obvious. I actually have a whole background worked up for her, which explains her low status within the Uchiha clan, why she ended up running courier missions instead of joining the Military Police, and so on. But none of that was relevant to her role within the story, so none of it got in.

I tried very hard to make Yukiko and Naga feel like they could slide right into the manga. I'm not developing Eiji quite the same way, because "Guardian" is attempting to criticize some things the manga takes for granted, whereas "Apartment Manager" followed the manga and didn't question most of the underpinnings of Konoha and ninja society. So Eiji probably feels like less of a smooth insert into the established world. I'm not thrilled about that, but it made my head hurt to try sliding him in and staying pitch-perfect, so I kind of gave up and wrote him in more of my own style and less of my imitating-Kishimoto style.