edenfalling | wherein Liz asks for help with British insults

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Question for people who know British slang:

What is a good 1940s equivalent of calling somebody a wanker and/or an arse? I have been told that both those insults are too modern, but I can't think of any alternatives.

watervole suggested 'bounder,' but also said that might be a bit early (though it does have something of the sound of C. S. Lewis, I suppose).

'Bastard' is a bit too strong, 'git' isn't strong enough, and basically I am stumped.

Help, please?

[Context: In 1948, Edmund Pevensie is writing an informal letter to his sister Susan, in which he briefly talks about the man she was... whatever the 1940s equivalent of 'out on a date with' the previous week.]

Current Mood: curious
Current Location: ithaca, ny
Crossposts: http://edenfalling.livejournal.com/513694.html

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From:

ineptshieldmaid

Oh, right, I meant to look that up for you. The Oxford English Dictionary has this nifty historical thesaurus now, let me see what I can unearth starting from 'wanker' and working back.

It lists for a contemptible person (where the date is the first OED citation, so it was probably in use before that):

roach - 1929 (used for both men and women, esp. prostitutes in the latter case)
dirty dog - 1928
arsehole - 1935
squiff - 1939
yuck - 1943 (A fool; a boor; anyone disliked or despised. - seems to be used for stupidity or with classist implication, not so much with 'inappropriate to date my sister' implications)

What might also be appropriate are disrespectful slang terms for American soldiers - it'd be about the right time period for a British girl to be going about with American soldiers. Yank? I'm not sure what else, all the terms I know are Australian-specific.

From:

edenfalling

Historical thesaurus? That is nifty!

Do you have dates for the first citations of pillock and tosser?

Alas, I cannot use American-soldier-specific terms, since Edmund also says that he went to school with the younger brother of the man in question.

From:

ineptshieldmaid

Pillock - 1967 (1500s for uses meaning 'penis')
Tosser - 1977

Git might be appropriate? Their earliest citation is 1946, but things are usually circulating in spoken English for a while before first citation.

Low-life is also an option (citations range 1911-1971)

The OED's latest citation for 'bounder' is 1930, but that's no guarantee that it dropped out of use bang on that date.

From:

ineptshieldmaid

Ah, I see 'git' and 'bounder' have already come up! And yes, I agree, slightly outdated slang would be appropriate for Lewis' characters, since his English wasn't exactly at the cutting edge of 1940s slang.

From:

edenfalling

Lewis and "cutting edge" really do not belong in the same sentence. :-)

Is there a citation date on 'arse' as opposed to 'arsehole'?

From:

ineptshieldmaid

There's a citation for 1784 where William Blake wrote "call me an arse" in a letter, then scratched it out in favour of "ass" (donkey), but no printed citations until the 1960s. I'm inclined to think that if 'arsehole' is in circulation, 'arse' probably is.

From:

speakr2customrs.livejournal.com

Pillock? Tosser? Tosspot?

Edited Date: 2011-01-26 11:29 pm (UTC)

From:

edenfalling

Hmm. I rather like tosser, come to think of it... :-) Thanks!

From:

willowgreen.livejournal.com

But would Edmund use the word "tosser" in a letter to Susan? It's really kind of crude (means the same thing as wanker), and even if he'd use it in conversation, would he write it down?

Or am I just overanalyzing way too much?

From:

edenfalling

Ineptshieldmaid, over on Dreamwidth, tells me that the Oxford Historial Thesaurus doesn't have print citations for 'tosser' until 1977, so it's probably disqualified for anachronism regardless of its level of crudity. :-/

She also tells me there are written citations for 'arsehole' dating back to 1935, which suggests that 'arse' was probably also in use, though it's not officially cited until the 1960s (aside from one use in a letter by William Blake in 1784). Also, while the latest print citation for 'bounder' was in 1930, words don't fall out of use overnight and Lewis was not exactly known for his use of cutting-edge slang anyway, so it probably wouldn't be too out of place in Narnia fic.

In other words, I think my choice comes down to either 'arse' or 'bounder,' depending on how crude or archaic I feel like being. :-)

From:

lady_songsmith

Not a brit, but 'cad'?

From:

edenfalling

I don't think the connotations are quite what I'm looking for, but it could work. Thanks for the suggestion. :-)

From:

metonomia.livejournal.com

'Rotter'? Might also be too modern, I'm not really sure.

From:

edenfalling

Hmm. It doesn't feel quite like what I'm looking for -- isn't it funny how subjective words can be? -- but it could work. Thanks! :-)

From:

snake-aes.livejournal.com

Prat.

From:

edenfalling

A good insult! But alas, it doesn't have quite the right connotations for my purposes.

From:

alchymie.livejournal.com

"Ass" was good enough for Shakespeare.

From:

edenfalling

You know, I tried substituting it into the story on the theory that no other insult sounded quite right to me... and suddenly ran into an issue that I think is specific to Narnia fandom: namely, the existence of Talking Beasts. If it is, as suggested by dialogue in The Last Battle, ruder than usual to use dog-related insults when talking about people (though the dialogue also suggests that it is still done), then it would likely also be ruder than usual to use donkey-related insults. In other words, the insult would probably seem much less casual to the Pevensies than to us, and I suspect they would only use it in highly charged situations or when not thinking... and when writing a letter, one generally does have time to self-edit a bit. So I am back to square one. :-/

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the deep moans round with many voices

wherein Liz asks for help with British insults

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