full text of a letter I sent to ff.net support, calling out Critics United

[edenfalling]

To whom it may concern:

I would like to report a systematic pattern of abuse by a group of members calling themselves Critics United (http://www.fanfiction.net/forum/Critics-United/78623/). They are not, in fact, critics. What they are is a self-appointed police force who go around leaving bullying and intimidating reviews, and reporting stories they claim are in violation of site rules.

Many of their reports are accurate, but I would like to point out that they are persistently misinterpreting rule 5 of the "entries not allowed" section, which states that

5. Any form of interactive entry: choose your adventure, second person/you based, Q&As, and etc.

is not permitted on the site.

It seems obvious to me that the rule prohibits INTERACTIVE content, and the words after the colon are examples of things that may fall into that category. The problem is that -- and this is important -- NOT ALL SECOND PERSON STORIES ARE INTERACTIVE. Sometimes second person is simply a narrative choice. An interactive story is defined by a writer's attempt to solicit audience feedback to determine the content of the next chapter. Writing in second person does not, in and of itself, constitute such an attempt at interactivity.

This is particularly important with regard to Homestuck fandom. (http://www.fanfiction.net/comic/Homestuck/) Homestuck is written in the style of a second person choose-your-adventure computer game, because it is a satire of such games. Many fanfiction stories for Homestuck are therefore also written in second person, to more accurately mimic the flavor of canon.

Homestuck fics that use chatlogs or actively attempt to be a choose-your-adventure story are of course not allowed, as per rule 5 and rule 6. But Homestuck stories that tell a traditional narrative that happens to be in second person are not, in fact, violating the spirit of rule 5.

For example, I recently had two members of Critics United -- MrGoodyTwoShoes ( http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2107552/ ) and Gaaras1Girl (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1821929/) attempt to intimidate me into deleting my story "Me, Myself, and Die" (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8616496/1/) on the grounds that it violates rule 5. Here is a copy of our correspondence:

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:56:06 -0700
From: MrGoodyTwoShoes
-------------------

Entries not allowed:

1. Non-stories: lists, bloopers, polls, previews, challenges, author notes, and etc.
2. One or two liners.
3. MST: comments inserted in between the flow of a copied story.
4. Stories with non-historical and non-fictional characters: actors, musicians, and etc.
5. Any form of interactive entry: choose your adventure, second person/you based, Q&As, and etc.
6. Chat/script format and keyboard dialogue based entries.

Your story is not allowed under section 5 of the guidelines.

2nd point of view aka "you" based stories are not allowed on this website. I suggest switching to either first or third person perspective before someone comes along and reports you.

MGTS of Critics United

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To which I responded as follows:

While your concern for proper procedure is admirable, you have misinterpreted the rules. Rule number 5 forbids INTERACTIVE entries, through which a writer solicits reader feedback to determine the content of the next chapter. Second person is a frequent SYMPTOM of such works, which is why it is listed as an example under section 5, but it is not in and of itself a determinant of interactivity (except insofar as ANY story demands the basic interactivity of a reader bringing the words to life in their own imagination). My story utilizes second person to add canon flavor, since Andrew Hussie's "Homestuck" is written in second person as a satire of text-based choose-your-adventure computer games, but my story is complete in and of itself and neither requests nor requires reader input for a continuation as there will never BE any continuation.

The "Homestuck" story I write that IS actually interactive has never and will never be posted on this site. Nor will the chatlog-based "Homestuck" stories. Because I do, in fact, read the rules. :-)

Cheers,
Liz

---------------
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To which he responded:

You are misunderstanding the rule completely. Second person stories are not allowed here at all.

It doesn't matter what the source material is, the rules of the site say it's not allowed and you agreed to follow those rules before posting.

Heed me review or not but don't be shocked when your work is removed because you violated the rule of this site.

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At this point Gaaras1Girl chimed in to say:

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:25:33 -0700
From: Gaaras1Girl ( http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1821929/ )
-------------------

You based stories are not allowed, change the POV or be reported. Hint: All you have to do is change the "you" to an "I" or make up a name.

-GG, Mod of Critics United

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To which I responded:

It is quite obvious you did not read my story, since you advise me to "make up" a name. The character addressed as "you" HAS a name -- Dave Strider -- which is given both in the summary and in the text of the story itself.

I reiterate what I said to MrGoodyTwoShoes about your group's misinterpretation of the rules. Second person is, I freely admit, a rare literary choice outside of Homestuck fandom, but it is a perfectly valid one. The rule is meant to disallow INTERACTIVE content, not an entire choice of subject pronoun. Arguing otherwise is splitting hairs over the poor wording of a rule whose spirit is perfectly clear.

If you and your fellow "critics" feel a need to improve content on this site, why not offer to beta read for people, or leave criticism that relates to the content of a story? Those would be positive contributions and would increase the number of good stories, which I presume is your ultimate stated goal. Because what you are doing now is not criticism. You are not teaching people to be better writers, nor are you creating new work for others to enjoy. What you are doing is petty bullying, pure and simple.

Sincerely,
Elizabeth Culmer

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I would also like to refer you to this topic thread in the Critics United forum, where it is clear that Gaaras1Girl did not have time to read my story before reviewing it, nor did she give me any time to read her review and respond before she leaped to report this so-called violation: http://www.fanfiction.net/topic/78623/29562573/59/Stories-in-Violation-CU-Members-Only. I will reproduce the text of the posts in question below:

MrGoodyTwoShoes
Story: Me, Myself, and Die Author: Elizabeth Culmer Fandom: Homestuck - "you" based story. Author argues it's allowed because the rule is about interactive fics only.
Reply Today 12:20PM . Edited 2 hours ago #2,943

Gaaras1Girl
Reviewed and reported.
Reply Today 12:22PM #2,944


The "today" in these posts is Wednesday, October 17, 2012. If you compare the timestamp of her post to the timestamp of her review, it becomes clear that Gaaras1Girl told MrGoodyTwoShoes that she had reported my story three minutes BEFORE she left her review in which she implied that she had NOT yet reported it. Therefore, her review to me was given under false pretenses -- it implicitly set up a "Follow my orders and I will not report you" situation, when in fact she had already filed a report.

Also note the next post in the topic thread, from MrGoodyTwoShoes:

MrGoodyTwoShoes
Story: Sister Blister Author: VirgoInDisguise Fandom: Homestuck - "you" based story. Author claims that because the webcomic is written like that then it's ok despite the claims they also read the rules before blocking me. I suspect this one is block happy.
This claim about the source material seems to be one of the excuses these kids will use so be ready for it.
Reply Today 1:56PM . Edited 2 hours ago #2,945

As you can see, Critics United has become aware of Homestuck fandom and seems to be preparing to target Homestuck stories and authors en masse under pretext of their misinterpretation of rule 5. To prevent this attack, I would like to respectfully request that rule 5 be reworded to clarify that it applies strictly to INTERACTIVE works and is not a blanket prohibition on the use of second person as a narrative technique, and also that a mod contact Critics United and tell them to stop trying to enforce their incorrect interpretation of the rule on other members of this site.

Sincerely,
Elizabeth Culmer (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/461224/Elizabeth_Culmer)
Member since 2003

Comments

[lexicology]

*applauds* Nicely done, with a thoughtful, polite yet firm response to (hopefully) get the proper authorities in to get these idiots heads out of their asses.

[edenfalling]

I don't really expect this to do much of anything -- ff.net is just too big and their administrative responses are too slow and haphazard -- but I figured it was better to put my money where my mouth was and at least TRY to do something constructive. *sigh*

[cofax7]

I am… not optimistic. FFN seems unlikely to respond in a timely manner (or at all). But good luck!

[edenfalling]

I'm not optimistic either, but I had to try.

[gramina]

Excellently done. Should it become necessary, you may also point to the wikipedia entry on second person narrative, which includes this passage: "In addition to a significant number of consistent (or nearly consistent) second-person novels and short-stories by, for example, Michel Butor, Marguerite Duras, Carlos Fuentes, Nathaniel Hawthorne, the technique of narrative second-person address has been widely employed in shorter or longer intermittent chapters or passages of narratives by William Faulkner, Günter Grass, Italo Calvino, Nuruddin Farah, Jan Kjærstad and many others."
I would suggest that those authors were not writing interactively with their audience.

[edenfalling]

Exactly so! MrGoodyTwoShoes has even implicitly acknowledged that he has no leg to stand on vis-a-vis the interactivity (or lack thereof) in my story; he is calling me a rule-breaker solely for my use of second person. So if the site admins are sensible and understand that second person is not the end of online civilization as we know it (TM), hopefully this can be cleared up and perhaps future senseless accusations of this type can be prevented.

Of course, this all relies on my letter reaching an admin with the time to read it and do something about it, instead of a person who simply hits the delete key on stories with only a cursory (if any) inspection to verify the charges against them. *sigh*

[jjhunter]

Clearly and succinctly articulated. I hope it has the effect you're looking for.

[edenfalling]

I am not especially optimistic -- ff.net is historically slow and wildly inconsistent about rule enforcement, and the site is HUGE -- but I refuse to just roll over and let these people target an entire fandom for bullying and abuse under a stupid misinterpretation of the rules.

[heliopausa.livejournal.com]

Bug-eyed here. This whole thing (the fanfiction world) is so much... odder than I knew. The Critics United site ... weird..

Also, of course, second-person narration is not equivalent to interactive. For a start: I'm wondering if "They told me, Heraclitus, they told me you were dead" could be rewritten to take out the "me". And I'm sure I've read a horror story or two in the second person. And any number of poems are written to "you/thou" -- of course a first person is implicit -- but that's one of the beautifully slithery things about the second person, as in your story, where the title pulls at a first person, and the narration notes 'some dead Daves', ie third person -- I think it's a terrific use of the shifting views as needed in the story.

[edenfalling]

Any group of people is going to develop subgroups, and some of those will be dedicated to enforcing an arbitrary "morality" on others, in the name of "what is right/following the rules" -- it seems to be fundamental to human nature. In fact, you can see echoes of the same behavior here -- I posted about what I consider a violation of the tacitly understood rules of fandom, and people have agreed with me that the members of Critics United are breaking them.

The difference, I think, is that they are taking glee in harrassing writers and destroying works of fiction, whereas I am trying to protect people's right to express themselves in a way that has a long and noble history in the literary tradition, and which is NOT, in fact, forbidden by ff.net's own rules. (Fanfiction.net being a privately owned site, its administration can, of course, forbid anything they want to. I simply think they have not forbidden second person altogether and Critics United are therefore bullying and intimidating writers on false pretexts. Their behavior is thus not only unpleasant but actively wrong.)

I'm glad you liked the shifting POV tricks in my story. :-)

[marici.livejournal.com]

I was saddened by the proof that people would spend their free time doing this, even on the internet. I hope your post helps other authors avoid their bullying. Based on my skim of their forum, it seems like an immediate block is the only response they can't stand from an author, but if the site mods have any sense at all, they should be stopped.

[edenfalling]

I have reported them again, for continuing harrassment and also for a post on their "Stories in Violation" thread where MrGoodyTwoShoes actively invites his fellow "critics" to dogpile on the Homestuck fandom. If that is not a targeted harrassment campaign, I don't know what is.

I don't know why some people get so much pleasure out of tearing other people down. :-(

[evalana.livejournal.com]

You go girl! I've been hearing about groups like this on Fanfiction.net who warn authors who supposedly "violate" the rules, and report them without valid claim.

[edenfalling]

I guess you get people like this anywhere a site grows large enough, but it's especially sad to see them on a site dedicated to the CREATION of stories to share. They are not trying to bring more joy into the world, nor to create anything useful. They are just tearing things down and leaving wreckage in their wake. :-(

[redwolf]

This kind of little Hitler troll has been running around ff.net forever. They're pathetic.

Queue hysterical laughter... MrGoodyTwoShoes actually wrote "I am neither troll nor a trouble maker despite what some authors say or how you may feel as you race here ready to send me that message putting me in my place." Wow! Classic troll behaviour. I love that they always go for the stereotypes straight out of Troll 101. He may as well have written that he's a loser who lives in his mother's basement and this is the only thing in his sad little life that makes him feel important.

I'd be surprised if you heard back from ff.net and if they do anything they're unlikely to bother telling you. Hopefully other people have been reporting the morons and there's a papertrail of their abuse on the longshot that ff.net finally decides to moderate their crappy site.

On the plus side of the lack of moderation I would note that the tactics of the troll group is to try to intimidate you into self-deletion because they know that ff.net ignore their whining.

[edenfalling]

Yeah, MrGoodyTwoShoes is a pretty classic troll. Apparently the ff.net admins deleted his and Gaaras1Girl's reviews, since it doesn't seem possible to delete one's own reviews and they have vanished from my story. So that's something, at least.

And yeah, intimidation into self-deletion is clearly their tactic of choice. I refuse to be intimidated, because I'm not breaking the rules.

[(Anonymous)]

Considering the rules say:

"5. Any form of interactive entry: choose your adventure, second person/you based, Q&As, and etc."

I find it very hard to support your cause much less your own bullying tactics here where you're clearly trying to get people to go after those people who reviewed your story by posting this note and crying about their actions.

I further find it difficult to believe your cries of bullying given how neither of those reviewers returned to your story since you removed and then reuploaded it, thus to remove their reviews while trying to play the "I guess the site removed them for me game because I r the victim" game.

Have they messaged you since? Have they reviewed any of your other stories? Have you had any sort of contact with either of them? Doesn't seem like it at all.

Good try kid but don't blame your inability to read on people who were trying to help you.

Lord Kelvin of the Literate Union

[edenfalling]

I am unscreening your comment so people can read your statement and reach their own conclusions. You can stand or fall on your own merits, such as they are. :-)

[redwolf]

Isn't that adorable. One of the ignorant, illiterate trolls has come to vomit on your column.

I see it's still playing by Troll 101 rules, with a really silly game of I'm not, but you are.

What a sad pathetic loser. So obsessed with its own self-importance that it thinks stalking people off site will help to make a point. All it does is flag yet another one of the pack of idiots as a troll. Oh noes, someone called us out of our game of intimidation and didn't run quaking in fear. Quick, have all of the other scum pile on to make us look even more stupid.

[edenfalling]

What I am most amused by is their insistence on calling me "kid," when it is actually more likely that I am older than they are. It's a classic bit of verbal power play, trying to establish themselves as the (rational, more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger) adults and me and anyone who agrees with me as the (irrational, tantrum-throwing) children. It is also clear evidence that they have no interest in learning anything about me, since it's not as if I've ever hidden my age.

[redwolf]

Typical belittling statement. Typical clueless attack with zero grasp of reality.

If they're too lazy or ignorant to be bothered figuring out who they're attacking, it's a sure sign that they don't actually have a clue what they're doing, just that they're right and everyone else is wrong. And if you argue, they see that as proof that they're right. Bizarro circular troll logic.

Remember those vigilante loons who falsely reported heaps LJ accounts and communities a few years back? The ones who shut down rape survival support groups and book discussion groups? This is exactly the same behaviour we're seeing from this group of idiots.

The funny thing is that they don't actually seem to grasp that this behaviour is exactly the garbage I've seen on the internets for years. They follow the same patterns of behaviour as all the other self-important trolls and think that flinging their own faeces around is a legitimate form of argument.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes because anyone who disagrees with your standpoint MUST be a troll. Anyone who has a differing argument from you must be one of them who are out to get you and therefore is nothing but a troll?

Did either of you stop to think that while they might not be right that you could also be wrong?

They may not be going about it in the best way but given how the site is set up how do you expect people to help you about a possible issue with your work? Isn't that what they were trying to point out to you? That said, the idea of getting others to join in isn't exactly the best method to foster help for anyone.

On the other side, if you are as old as you claim you are Eden then don't you see how you're acting is not the most mature of reactions? Wouldn't the adult here just leave things be and let those that run the site decide? Instead, as the other person pointing out, you've chosen to take to the internet with your side and try to rally people to go after these people.

That's the exact same thing you're claiming they're doing to you.

Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

No one is right here and no one is wrong either.

I really hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears although I suspect it will when you and your friend label me a troll and start making passive aggressive insults about me while making yourselves look better.

A real shame really....you could have used this as a chance to foster understanding instead of what you're doing here: trying to hide that you might have misread the rules of a website.

[edenfalling]

I am unscreening your comment so people can read your statement and reach their own conclusions. You can stand or fall on your own merits, such as they are. :-)

[edenfalling]

Hey, small favor: while I know they are extremely frustrating, can we please stop feeding the trolls? There is really no point in trying to have a logical argument with people who are not using logic.

[redwolf]

No worries.

I have not interacted with the trolls in any way and have no intention of doing so now or in the future. Trolls have no interest in conversation as they only want to hear their own voice; as evidenced by the sad little muppet's last effort at flailing its limp extremities about while it regurgitated generic troll catch phrases 4, 7 and 15 in its shrill little voice.

I do, however, take delight in pointing and laughing at the childish behaviour displayed by a bunch of idiots who use the banner of "critic" in a weak attempt to hide a long running campaign of gang attacks, bullying, threats and intimidation.

The really fun thing is that these posts will come up every time one of their future victims searches for evidence of their trolling, making it a nice public service announcement.

[(Anonymous)]

Sigh... you kids really need to learn how to read. And the rules are pretty clear.

But since the members of Critics United are not breaking the rules, the site administrators of fanfiction.net are not going to just do whatever you say.

You're simply better off calming down and thinking how your work can be made so it follows the rules of the page you are using to host it.

If you don't want to follow those rules there are other sites that you can go to. You don't have to sit there and listen to something you don't like if there are other places that you can go.

[edenfalling]

I am unscreening your comment so people can read your statement and reach their own conclusions. You can stand or fall on your own merits, such as they are. :-)