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edenfallingYeah, yeah, dead horse. I know. But WishingDreamer5 (despite the "I have no other choice but to report you" thing in their original review -- what, someone was holding a gun to your head?) is at least willing to ask me what I mean instead of assuming that my viewpoint is automatically irrelevant. So I am attempting to explain. And I am also making my explanation public "in order for others to see it, just like teachers do at school," because that is indeed a good idea. :-)
A message I received at 8:06am, Eastern Daylight Time, on October 23, 2012
Name: WishingDreamer5
Profile: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1726816/
--------------------
Now I'm confused.
"Second person is prohibited only when it is used in service of interactivity, as when the reader is directly addressed as if she or he were a character."
Actually, to me it certainly feels like I -the reader - was directly adressed as if I were that character. That's what happens when you write in second person and it doesn't matter if you already have another name in the summary or not. When you don't use that name in your summary all that much and only put "you" everywhere, it's like you're writing about the reader/as if the reader is that character and that still makes it interactive, (albeit unintentionally?).
If you're sure that you're right and the mods won't come up with the same conclusion as I did, then you don't have to change it. CU is about warning people so they can save their hard work rather than it being deleted and sometimes it's better to be safe than sorry (which is why you were warned multiple times, because sometimes you need to tell something more than once in order for others to see it, just like teachers do at school).
Anyways, good luck with whatever you may decide.
~WD5
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To which I responded:
You're right, I didn't explain that very well. Let me try again.
The kind of story ffnet's guidelines forbid is one where the writer explicitly address the reader as if she (or he) were an original character entering the story. To create an example on the spot: "You are a new cadet at Balamb Garden, training in hopes of becoming a member of SEED. One day on your way back from class, you accidentally run into Squall and develop a crush when he quietly helps you to your feet and tells Seifer not to make fun of your clumsiness. But will he return your love? Review to choose what happens next!"
That is an extreme case, of course, but the basic point is that that imaginary story is interactive because the writer is soliciting reader input to determine the content of the next chapters, and because the character addressed as YOU is explicitly defined as the reader.
But second person does not need to be addressed directly to the reader. It is simply a point of view technique, just like first person and third person. For example, let me summarize another imaginary FFVIII story: "You don't remember anything before Balamb Garden. Your earliest memory is seeing light flash on the edge of a gunblade and feeling a nameless ache stir in your chest. And that's fine. The present moment, facing Seifer with steel in your hand and your finger on the trigger, is more important than any forgotten past and any possible future."
It is pretty obvious that the person addressed as YOU is Squall, not the reader. Also note that no reader input is solicited.
It is true that second person invites a closer identification with the viewpoint character than either first or third person (while also, paradoxically, creating a distancing effect because of its rarity and unfamiliarity), but second person is not interactive in and of itself -- except insofar as ALL fiction is interactive, since it demands a reader's mind and imagination to bring the words to life. Reading is a collaborative act between a writer and a reader, after all.
Cheers,
Elizabeth Culmer
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---------------
I am blurring the point on where use of second person slides from "a character's point of view expressed in an unorthodox technique" to "an author directly addressing the reader," but that's somewhat unavoidable since there is no hard and fast line in the sand between those extremes. It gets even blurrier if you use second person to tell the story of an original character in a work of fanfiction -- in practice, it can be made clear through a distinctive voice and a solid POV that "you" refers to a specific character rather than to a generalized/idealized reader, but I am pretty sure any rule I tried to lay down would have at least a dozen exceptions. *sigh*
...
Tangentially, it's frustrating to get messages about complicated issues while I am at work (or checking email on my way to work). I can read email and do a surprising amount of websurfing via my phone during my lunch break or slow periods in the evening, but typing more than a couple short sentences in response is next to impossible. Basically, after I disconnect from my upstairs neighbors' wireless router I am incommunicado until I get home from work the next day, because I don't leave any slack time in my morning routine to get online at all, let alone type up thoughtful comments.
(Which is, of course, another reason not to get into fights. There is no way in the world I could moderate anything in a responsible fashion.)
A message I received at 8:06am, Eastern Daylight Time, on October 23, 2012
Name: WishingDreamer5
Profile: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1726816/
--------------------
Now I'm confused.
"Second person is prohibited only when it is used in service of interactivity, as when the reader is directly addressed as if she or he were a character."
Actually, to me it certainly feels like I -the reader - was directly adressed as if I were that character. That's what happens when you write in second person and it doesn't matter if you already have another name in the summary or not. When you don't use that name in your summary all that much and only put "you" everywhere, it's like you're writing about the reader/as if the reader is that character and that still makes it interactive, (albeit unintentionally?).
If you're sure that you're right and the mods won't come up with the same conclusion as I did, then you don't have to change it. CU is about warning people so they can save their hard work rather than it being deleted and sometimes it's better to be safe than sorry (which is why you were warned multiple times, because sometimes you need to tell something more than once in order for others to see it, just like teachers do at school).
Anyways, good luck with whatever you may decide.
~WD5
---------------
---------------
To which I responded:
You're right, I didn't explain that very well. Let me try again.
The kind of story ffnet's guidelines forbid is one where the writer explicitly address the reader as if she (or he) were an original character entering the story. To create an example on the spot: "You are a new cadet at Balamb Garden, training in hopes of becoming a member of SEED. One day on your way back from class, you accidentally run into Squall and develop a crush when he quietly helps you to your feet and tells Seifer not to make fun of your clumsiness. But will he return your love? Review to choose what happens next!"
That is an extreme case, of course, but the basic point is that that imaginary story is interactive because the writer is soliciting reader input to determine the content of the next chapters, and because the character addressed as YOU is explicitly defined as the reader.
But second person does not need to be addressed directly to the reader. It is simply a point of view technique, just like first person and third person. For example, let me summarize another imaginary FFVIII story: "You don't remember anything before Balamb Garden. Your earliest memory is seeing light flash on the edge of a gunblade and feeling a nameless ache stir in your chest. And that's fine. The present moment, facing Seifer with steel in your hand and your finger on the trigger, is more important than any forgotten past and any possible future."
It is pretty obvious that the person addressed as YOU is Squall, not the reader. Also note that no reader input is solicited.
It is true that second person invites a closer identification with the viewpoint character than either first or third person (while also, paradoxically, creating a distancing effect because of its rarity and unfamiliarity), but second person is not interactive in and of itself -- except insofar as ALL fiction is interactive, since it demands a reader's mind and imagination to bring the words to life. Reading is a collaborative act between a writer and a reader, after all.
Cheers,
Elizabeth Culmer
---------------
---------------
I am blurring the point on where use of second person slides from "a character's point of view expressed in an unorthodox technique" to "an author directly addressing the reader," but that's somewhat unavoidable since there is no hard and fast line in the sand between those extremes. It gets even blurrier if you use second person to tell the story of an original character in a work of fanfiction -- in practice, it can be made clear through a distinctive voice and a solid POV that "you" refers to a specific character rather than to a generalized/idealized reader, but I am pretty sure any rule I tried to lay down would have at least a dozen exceptions. *sigh*
...
Tangentially, it's frustrating to get messages about complicated issues while I am at work (or checking email on my way to work). I can read email and do a surprising amount of websurfing via my phone during my lunch break or slow periods in the evening, but typing more than a couple short sentences in response is next to impossible. Basically, after I disconnect from my upstairs neighbors' wireless router I am incommunicado until I get home from work the next day, because I don't leave any slack time in my morning routine to get online at all, let alone type up thoughtful comments.
(Which is, of course, another reason not to get into fights. There is no way in the world I could moderate anything in a responsible fashion.)
