overly sanctimonious rules-lawyers and witch hunts

[edenfalling]

So does anyone know how, exactly, ff.net interprets their own posting rules? Particularly with regard to "Homestuck" fic? Because this afternoon I had the following exchange with a prissy rules-lawyer type, in regard to my story Me, Myself, and Die:


Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:56:06 -0700
From: MrGoodyTwoShoes ( http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2107552/ )
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Entries not allowed:

1. Non-stories: lists, bloopers, polls, previews, challenges, author notes, and etc.
2. One or two liners.
3. MST: comments inserted in between the flow of a copied story.
4. Stories with non-historical and non-fictional characters: actors, musicians, and etc.
5. Any form of interactive entry: choose your adventure, second person/you based, Q&As, and etc.
6. Chat/script format and keyboard dialogue based entries.

Your story is not allowed under section 5 of the guidelines.

2nd point of view aka "you" based stories are not allowed on this website. I suggest switching to either first or third person perspective before someone comes along and reports you.

MGTS of Critics United

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To which I responded as follows:

While your concern for proper procedure is admirable, you have misinterpreted the rules. Rule number 5 forbids INTERACTIVE entries, through which a writer solicits reader feedback to determine the content of the next chapter. Second person is a frequent SYMPTOM of such works, which is why it is listed as an example under section 5, but it is not in and of itself a determinant of interactivity (except insofar as ANY story demands the basic interactivity of a reader bringing the words to life in their own imagination). My story utilizes second person to add canon flavor, since Andrew Hussie's "Homestuck" is written in second person as a satire of text-based choose-your-adventure computer games, but my story is complete in and of itself and neither requests nor requires reader input for a continuation as there will never BE any continuation.

The "Homestuck" story I write that IS actually interactive has never and will never be posted on this site. Nor will the chatlog-based "Homestuck" stories. Because I do, in fact, read the rules. :-)

Cheers,
Liz

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To which he responded:

You are misunderstanding the rule completely. Second person stories are not allowed here at all.

It doesn't matter what the source material is, the rules of the site say it's not allowed and you agreed to follow those rules before posting.

Heed me review or not but don't be shocked when your work is removed because you violated the rule of this site.

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Now, first of all I am not inclined to listen to a guy whose review carries overtones of "do what I say or I will report you". He claims he doesn't report people himself, just points out problems that other may report (see his rules-lawyer account here), but given his paternalistic prescriptivism, I confess to having doubts. Also I stand by my interpretation of section 5 (which is a terribly-worded rule in any case).

BUT.

FF.net is notoriously idiosyncratic about which rules they enforce, what interpretation of their rules they enforce, when they enforce them, and whether they give any warning beforehand. I have had a story written in second person ("Knives") up on my account for YEARS with no complaints whatsoever. And I have a strong suspicion that this may be part of a campaign directed against Homestuck fandom in particular, since Homestuck has a large hatedom as well as a large fandom. But as I said, ff.net can decide to enforce completely random things for no reason.

Do you think I am correct in my interpretation?

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ETA: Oh look, he's brought a friend!

Gaaras1Girl chimes in to say:

You based stories are not allowed, change the POV or be reported. Hint: All
you have to do is change the "you" to an "I" or make up a name.

-GG, Mod of Critics United

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So this IS a threat, no matter what MrGoodyTwoShoes claims on his profile! Truth revealed!

(And Gaaras1Girl, did you even bother to read the story? The character HAS a name. It's Dave. That is explicit in the summary and the story, and nobody who knows the fandom would blink twice at it.)

...

Is this seriously the best use people can think of for their time? What kind of enjoyment do they even GET from this kind of witch-hunting???

...

I would write more but I have to go to work now.

Comments

[k_a_webb]

I don't know how they'd interpret their rules, but after reading them a few times it does seem pretty obvious to me that they're talking about interactive stories and your fic isn't interactive. Yes, it's written in the second person, but the rule says 'interactive entries: second person/you based'. Not second person/you based stories. *shrug* Maybe they should clarify in order to stop these things from happening, especially considering people are PMing people to tell them that they've broken the rules (which seems utterly pointless to me).

[edenfalling]

I have written a support request that, among other things, asks ff.net to clarify the wording of rule 5. This will probably not produce any results but at least I did something more than seethe on my journal. :-/

[branchandroot]

"Critics United" sounds like that bunch of idiots that has lately been running around ff.n deliberately searching out any and all stories that don't live up to their "high" standards and doing their best to get those stories deleted by reporting them for "breaking" any rule that can be bent to fit. It's petty and spiteful hatemongering. They're trolls, pure and simple (which is ironic, considering the fandom). So, yes, they probably will try to report you, and whether or not the report is acted on probably depends on who takes it and whether they have the brains god gave a gnat. 50/50 chances, I'd say. Nothing you can do will cause that lot to change their minds, stop being such assholes, or otherwise get a life in any way, so I'd say give them the verbal finger, them and their little language-fascist clique, and let the chips fall.

[edenfalling]

It's petty and spiteful hatemongering. They're trolls, pure and simple (which is ironic, considering the fandom).

Yeah, pretty much. I actually reported THEM for abuse, along with a request to clarify the wording of rule 5. I don't expect my email to do much good, but at least it's there to register my side of the story.

[lexicology]

*sigh* What a bunch of morons. I suppose you could try contacting the site mods yourself, to ask for a clarification of the rules, but given the Pit's history, I'm not sure you'd get any sort of reply, let alone a helpful one. Certainly engaging these anal jerks further seems pretty pointless otherwise.

[edenfalling]

I have requested a rule clarification, along with reporting Critics United for bullying behavior. I do not expect it to do much good, but at least I've put my side of the story out there.

(And ff.net DID eventually get back to me about creating a category for Seaward fanfiction, as well as adding Wilhelmina Benedict to the character list in Black Jewels fandom. So somebody is reading the email inbox. Eventually.)

[(Anonymous)]

Finally! I have been trying to figure out how to contact them about this so perhaps you can help.

I am having the same problem and I really do think that the rules are written vaguely and are completely unhelpful. So, on to my question, how exactly did you contact them? Did you just send them an email? Because I've been wanting to ask them about this but, when going into the help section, I wasn't sure the best way to go about it because they don't seem to have a proper place to ask about things like this. I know they say that you can tweet them or whatever but I have no desire to get a twitter just for this and I doubt that would actually DO anything. The whole pov thing seemed so ridiculous that I thought I was just being trolled but then I realized there really was something mentioned in the rules. It is not helpful at all.

This just reinforces the beauty of AO3, in my opinion.

[edenfalling]

I sent an email to support with the subject line [abuse] Critics United, persistent bullying and intimidation of other members, misinterpretation of rules on allowed content‏. That got the first two reviews taken down, though I was not contacted about the action. In response to the third "review" from a Critics United member, I sent another email to support with the subject line [abuse] Critics United, persistent intimidation, misinterpretation of allowed content rules, and targeted bullying campaign against the entire Homestuck fandom‏. So far as I know, nothing has come of that.

I figure that ff.net is probably not going to take down Homestuck stories that use second person to refer to a character within the story, because those stories are not interactive. All the Critics United people can do is try to intimidate writers into self-deleting their fics.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you, my hope is that maybe if more people report this it will stop. I might write up an email about the rule in general though.

[silverblade219]

I'm not in the Homestruck fandom, but even from skimming over the story Dave is named inside the story itself. I don't see it as violation of the "interactive" rule. (and plus, the 2nd person pronouns work better for the timetravel settling in this case, I think.)

Also, it is a good story, and I don't understand why they decided to target your story.

[edenfalling]

Also, it is a good story, and I don't understand why they decided to target your story.

Thank you! I think they have no lives and get enjoyment more from pulling other people down than from creating anything of their own, and evidently MrGoodyTwoShoes, at least, haunts the "what's new" section of the site, the better to pounce on anything that might, conceivably, be construed as against a rule.

[cofax7]

WTF. FFN bans 2nd-person POV stories?

I feel inspired to post one! (Do I have any? I must…)

[edenfalling]

My interpretation is that ff.net bans interactive stories, and since a lot of those tend to be written in second person, the wording of the rule against them was overly broad. Now a bunch of jerkasses have decided, because of the poorly worded rule, that all second person stories (whether interactive or not!) are verboten. Grrr.

[fateofshadow.livejournal.com]

Considering the rampant misogyny, gay fetishism, cultural imperialism, rape defined as 'love', drug use defined as 'cool', eating disorders defined as 'normal', racism, white-washing, cultural slander or misrepresentation, character bashing based on half of the above and yet more misrepresentation that takes place in the fanfiction community... this is what people target? Really?

Hell, go after the people with shaky English and offer to beta. Give con-crit for plot or characterisation. Do something about the worst offenders before you even think about going after the good ones. Some of the FF rules have holes in their interpretation anyway and the staff enforcing them are not consistent.

You realise no matter what you do, the little trolls are going to report you anyway. And I don't mean the nice Homestuck trolls (are they trolls? I am not in this fandom, if I join one more, I may implode with the effort of keeping up with them all).

[edenfalling]

Fun fact! According to a post she made on the Critics United forum, Gaaras1Girl actually reported me three minutes BEFORE she left me a review implying that she HADN'T reported me and that I could, in fact, prevent her from reporting me by giving in to her bullying!

I love people like that. Just flat-out adore them. :-)

[askerian]

... whoa, what a bunch of douchebags. I can't even. dude. what. I'm sorry those dickwads have decided to target you. argh.

[edenfalling]

The bizarre part is that, as far as I know, they haven't said word one about any of my other second person stories on ff.net. Which include "Ring the Changes," "Wherein Two Moirails Make the Best of a Stolen Afternoon," "Along the Way," "Knives," and "Parseltongue," and bits of "Prayers to Broken Stone" and "Seasons of Cloud and Shadow (Like the Deserts Miss the Rain)" -- those last two being both more and less objectionable than the others: less because the second person sections are only parts of the story, and more because the second person sections are addressed directly and explicitly to the reader, not to a character in the story.

They are not very systematic would-be police! Which is good for me, but also highlights that they are not actually concerned about the quality of stories on the site. They are simply bullies.

[lady_songsmith]

I'd be seriously tempted to preemptively report them for spamming/harassment or something like that. I don't think the rule in any way intends to block all fic written in 2nd person POV, and if they think that, they are seriously in need of a critical reading review.

Oh, you've been reported, hon. They have a forum where they sic one another on fics. Yours is here, toward the bottom:
http://www.fanfiction.net/topic/78623/29562573/59/Stories-in-Violation-CU-Members-Only

MGTS: Story: Me, Myself, and Die Author: Elizabeth Culmer Fandom: Homestruck - "you" based story. Author argues it's allowed because the rule is about interactive fics only.
GG: Reviewed and reported.

followed by another fic who mentioned the canon and the comment "This claim about the source material seems to be one of the excuses these kids will use so be ready for it."

Oh, one more thing found trawling through their boards (god, does MGTS do anything but poke fic? he's got another comm just like this one, too). They have an "explanation" of why 2nd-person fics are against the rules, which boils down to "they can be kiddie porn if someone underage reads them!" and the interactive thing. *facepalming forever*

[edenfalling]

I did report them for abusive and bullying behavior, and requested a clarification of rule 5 while I was at it. I doubt it will do much good, but at least I have put my side of the story out there. *sigh*

MGTS claims he writes fic under a different penname, but given how prolific he is at generating "violation" complaints, I am inclined to doubt it. That or he flat-out has no life... which, come to think of it, might explain why he feels a need to boost his ego by acting as a "guardian" of orthodoxy.

And yeah, this group fails critical reading forever. :-(

[lady_songsmith]

I looked through their "member list" and a LOT of them are CU-only accounts that claim to write fic under other names, but won't say what those are. Some of them say it's so their fic-writing account won't get "picked on" by people angry about the CU stuff. I expect some of them actually do write, but I for one don't take writing critique from someone with no credentials. They like to argue that "you don't need to have made films to review them" but you do need some bona fides if you want anyone to give a damn about your reviews, and they don't have any. They cite Ebert like he he was some joe off the street and didn't have a career and degrees in journalism before he started as a critic.

So I notice the two reviews are off your story - though they've got a new one poking you - I take it that's a good sign and ff.net might be listening?

[edenfalling]

I don't know, but I'm going to report them again and point out MrGoodyTwoShoes's new post in that thread that basically invites his fellow "critics" to dogpile on the Homestuck fandom. If that is not classic bullying behavior, I don't know what is.

[aishuu.livejournal.com]

You're right, but you may not win this one because the Internet Lawyer is going to put a hell of a lot more effort into it. Second person is a perfectly valid storytelling mechanism.

It's a power trip. They have no life...

[edenfalling]

Well, I have at least registered an official complain of my own with ff.net. We shall see if anything comes of either their efforts or mine.

And damn straight these people have no lives! Also, I am extremely unimpressed by MGTS's use of a secondary penname for his hatchet work. What, HE'S allowed to criticize whoever he wants, but *gasp shock horror!!!* nobody can EVER be allowed to follow him home and return the favor. Twit.

[snacky]

Ugh, not ANOTHER fanfic.net nanny group. The other one I know of was Literate Union, who invented a bot or something to "check" an entire fandom's stories, to see if any were in violation they could report.

They tend to be young kids (or adults with self-esteem issues) who have decided they know everything there is about writing, and that they need to police ff.net to make sure no one is violating the rules. And they seem to take a lot of glee in being nasty about it.

Of course, it's kind of odd that they don't understand a second person POV. And no, I don't think they're interpreting the rules correctly, but I don't know that ff.net's admins actually care about that.

[edenfalling]

I highly doubt that ff.net's admins care, but I have a tiny, vague, beaten-down hope that they might change the wording of their rule to prevent a deluge of future spurious abuse reports of this type as these Critics United people troll through the site's Homestuck archive. It would save them work! It would totally be in their own best interests! It would take all of five minutes!

But it probably won't happen. :-/

[willowgreen.livejournal.com]

Wow. I went to Mr. Goody Two Shoes' page. He is an asshole and proud of it. I can't imagine a worse way to spend one's online life than trolling the Internet for people who may or may not have broken "the rules,"* but I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.

*And I don't usually publicize this on LiveJournal, but I actually wrote (one version of) the rules (http://www.amazon.com/Netiquette-Virginia-Shea/dp/0963702513/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1350528729&sr=8-2&keywords=netiquette).

[edenfalling]

I am inclined to think MGTS has no offline life and joining Critics United is the only way he could think of to validate himself as a "useful" person -- by setting himself up as the "guardian" of an online community. Except of course the community did not need such a guardian, he doesn't understand the very rules he claims to be enforcing, and also he's a bully. But! It takes all kinds. :-/

*And I don't usually publicize this on LiveJournal, but I actually wrote (one version of) the rules.

Neat! :-)

[hungrytiger11.livejournal.com]

Well, you are definitely in the right, but who knows what ff.net will say! Good luck.

[edenfalling]

Thank you!

(frozen) (no subject)

[(Anonymous)]

I doubt that the site will actually take your side in this. Their rules are very obvious and I'll be honest, you're acting like a child who has had their favorite toy taken from them. Maybe you should try growing up and actually take the help that you're being offered by that group.

They gave you a chance to change the story, simple things to change even, and you decided to act like an intolerant little twat about it. So really, it'll be your fault if your stories are taken down.

(frozen) (no subject)

[edenfalling]

I am unscreening your comment so people can read your statement and reach their own conclusions. You can stand or fall on your own merits, such as they are. I am also freezing this comment thread because of your misogynistic insults. :-)