a poll, because I am curious

[edenfalling]

Tangentially to my last post, because I know people react differently to things:

Poll #13121

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 20

View Respondents

Upon receiving a review of the form, "I usually dislike/hate/don't understand/can't believe in Story Element X, but you made me like it/understand it/see how it could work/enjoy your story anyway," how do you tend to feel?

View Answers

Flattered: "I'm such a great writer that I changed this reader's mind about X!"
15 (75.0%)

Defensive: "What's wrong with X anyway?!"
3 (15.0%)

Confused: "If you don't like X, why were you reading my story in the first place?"
10 (50.0%)

Something else which I will explain in a comment.
3 (15.0%)

Tickybox!
7 (35.0%)

(The poll is Dreamwidth only, since that's where I have a paid account, but I think you may also be able to vote via OpenID.)

Comments

[lady_songsmith]

So I split my vote between flattered and confused, because a lot depends on the way the comment is worded. There's a difference between the way "I don't read slash but this is pretty good" comes across and the way "I don't ship John/Fred (John/Richard is my OTP!) but you made me like it" comes across. Y'know?

[branchandroot]

*points up* What she said.

[edenfalling]

Good point! I tend toward a mix of the three main options I listed, but which emotion predominates definitely depends on both the phrasing and the specific nature of Story Element X... as well as the presence or absence of other content in the review. If a sentence of this type is the ONLY content, I am much more likely to be confused and defensive, but if the reviewer provides some specific details about what ze liked in the story, flattery may win out. :-)

[redwolf]

I call troll. Some people are just dicks.

[edenfalling]

Some people are indeed pretty far out there. :-/

[wrabbit]

I think it's great. It's not confusing to me why someone would read something they don't normally go for: I read outside of my comfort zone all the time because I crave the feeling of my mental kaleidoscope shifting into a view I've never experienced before that I get when a story makes me look at something in a different way and like something I didn't like. Kinks that I have always previously found to be turn-offs, pairings I have never understood, plots I have never liked but always wanted to see done in a convincing way anyway. Anything like that.

There are certainly "I've never liked this, but..." comments that are phrased in an offensive or kink-shaming way. But in my experience most of them mean to say (and I mean to say when I write them) nothing more than 'YKINMK(BYKIO), and I was resigned to never getting what other people saw in it, but I now I see something I never understood in a new way and even positively connected with it all because of how you compellingly communicated its attractiveness in a way that I could connect with in this story.' And that's fantastic.

[edenfalling]

But in my experience most of them mean to say (and I mean to say when I write them) nothing more than 'YKINMK(BYKIO), and I was resigned to never getting what other people saw in it, but I now I see something I never understood in a new way and even positively connected with it all because of how you compellingly communicated its attractiveness in a way that I could connect with in this story.' And that's fantastic.

See, that is a response I would be uncomplicatedly flattered to receive! The trouble (for me) is that in my experience, too many people who have used the "I don't usually like X, but..." construction when commenting on my stories have written with an undertone of "and I still don't like X and would've enjoyed the story more if you hadn't included it" instead of "and now I can see why other people enjoy X and thus my horizons have been broadened." Which I think has made me reflexively suspicious of that construction, no matter what the reviewer's actual intent. :-(

[wrabbit]

I haven't seen many comments like that myself. That is disappointing.

Whether I would take "I still don't like X" comments as rude or awkwardly well-meaning depends on the phrasing - whether the reviewer is just acknowledging a difference in taste in the process of issuing a compliment or whether they are critiquing the author as having the wrong taste and implying they should change it.

If they write, "I don't like X, but I gave your story a chance and really liked it despite not being into X," that doesn't necessarily imply the author is misguided for liking X even though the reviewer doesn't like it. If really they don't like X personally and still don't like it after reading the story, it's got to have been an exceptional story in other aspects for them to push past the personal barrier of not liking whatever X is. I would most likely not make a comment like this because like domarzione wrote below, it can have the unfortunate implication that I don't like the rest of their work. I would take a comment like this as a compliment as long as it seemed they were just saying YKINMK and not explicitly putting down X as distasteful or always written badly, but I can see how someone wouldn't or how it could be read either way.

But if they write something to the effect of, "I don't usually like X, but this was good. It would have been sexier/better without the X." Then X isn't being pointed out as a neutral thing to be liked or disliked, and it's not being pointed out as a means to compliment, but the author's preference for X is actually being critiqued as wrong. That I would find rude and unnecessary considering that 99% of the time they could easily find fic without X if they want to. It sounds like these are the type of comments you've been seeing?

(I probably don't need to mention this, but obviously I'm assuming that X is a pairing or kink or narrative trope and not actually something where liking or not liking it is politically charged. Like, oh: "I don't like stories with any Asian or gay characters but the rest of your story was great despite it!" is guaranteed to be pretty inherently suspicious and offensive no matter what.)

[edenfalling]

If we're just talking ships, kinks, narrative tropes, then yes, I have gotten some of the more positive "and now you have introduced me to wonderful new things!" type of "I didn't like X, BUT" comment, or even just the friendly YKINMK type. They can be pretty nice to read. :-)

However, the particular review that led to this poll read, as follows:

It's old. It's odd. It's short. And I am homophobic. But still, it's good for a laugh, and definitely WAFF-y. :) I like it.

...I was gobsmacked, frankly. It's one thing to say something along the lines of, "Slash is not my cup of tea, but I enjoyed the humor and WAFF-y aspects of this story," but to outright declare oneself a homophobe and then act as if liking a slash story despite that entitles one to a cookie is, um, well it made me feel as if I'd somehow been complicit in something icky.

The sad thing is that that review is noticeable less for the sentiment expressed than for the bluntness used to express it. Which is not to say I get "I think slash is icky, BUT" reviews all the time, but yeah, they're out there. And I have never gotten one of them that continued on to say that I'd changed the reviewer's mind, just that they'd liked the not-gay parts of the story. :-(

[wrabbit]

Yeah, that is gross :( I wouldn't even know how to respond to that.

[krait]

I ticked them all, because so much depends on what X is. I'd react pretty differently to "I don't read slash, but" and "I don't read this pairing, but", for sure; but a whole lot of it, too, is how invested I am in something. I'm going to feel a whole lot more defensive about "I don't read X, but" comments if X is an exclusive property of my fic -- if you "don't read Bren/Jago" and that's the only pairing I care about in that fandom, uh, yeah, why are you here again? You either came in from a very unusual path, and therefore are completely unaware that Bren/Jago is all I write and read... or else you do know that and still feel a need to throw your rejection of Bren/Jago into the ring. (I believe in giving the benefit of the doubt, so I'll respond to you with polite 'if you like it now, I have more, but otherwise you'll need to look elsewhere' comments no matter where I think you wandered in from. But. Yeah.)

Short answer: My feelings and my responses aren't always the same, because that's how social activity works; my responses to "I dont like X, but" will hopefully always be polite, but my feelings are going to vary based on the way the comment(er) is presented.

Same goes for "confused" and "flattered", though maybe not to the same degree. I'd be a lot more or less confused depending on whether the comment goes on to explain how the reader got here ("I don't read X, but my friend said I HAD to give yours a try!" or "I don't read X, but I absolutely couldn't resist the Y and Z in your story!"), and also how obvious I was about the content and to what degree the story emphasises it (if you don't read X, and my summary is "This is a story about Bob and X! Lots and lots of X!"... I'm confused.) Flattery, likewise -- give me some context for why you are praising me, beyond "I didn't hate it and that's weird for me", and I'm more likely to be flattered, because hey: I wrote this, so chances are good that I think "not hating X" is normal.

[edenfalling]

I also try for polite responses even if I am not feeling especially charitable, because yeah, that is how social interaction works. I don't always succeed, but I do try. (If for no other reason than a lack of the requisite time and spoons to participate in bitter online arguments. *sigh*)

As I said above to lady_songsmith, if a sentence of the "I don't like X, but..." type is the ONLY content in a review, I am much more likely to be confused and defensive, but if the reviewer provides some specific details about what ze liked in the story, flattery may win out. And yeah, my feelings also depend on what X is, how central X is to the story, and how invested I am in X in general -- those are good points. :-)

[krait]

Heh. Yeah, polite can be a difficult achievement in the face of some internet users. ;D

And definitely "I don't like X, but" is more frustrating/confusing when it's presented without further context!

I may be somewhat weird, but currently I only have about ten fics to my name, and most of them are short, several are from a trope-specific meme, and I'm not ultra-super-deeply invested in the pairings, so when I think of people objecting to a pairing I write or a plot device I've used, it's not... personal? Or not as much. I can easily picture myself receiving a comment that's essentially "I don't like Soubi/Nisei, but this was good" or "I don't usually read Canadian Shack fics, but I like this", and all I can think is, "Well, I don't usually write Soubi/Nisei, and the Canadian Shack trope is far from my favourite, so that's understandable!"

Try to tell me that my SS/HP fic is weird and squicky to you because of the pairing, though, and I will never speak to you again. :D (Kidding, of course. But there's a whole lot of less than flattering commentary that can be said about that fic, and I will not quibble! Tell me you don't like overblown angst, or h/c sex, or my overabundance of commas, and I will nod shamefacedly along and admit my own dissatisfaction. Those are problems. The pairing, however, I love with all my heart!) *grin*

[edenfalling]

Alas, for we must never speak again! *removes tongue from cheek*

Nah, more seriously, Snape/Harry is not really my cup of tea (teacher/student in general is not my cup of tea, though clearly it works like gangbusters for a lot of people, and more power to them!), but I have read and enjoyed a fair number of Snarry fics in my day because, fandom being fandom, that was the only semi-reliable way to find stories where they actually sat down and talked about their issues and their similarities, and I very badly wanted to read them sitting down and talking about their issues and similarities. :-)

[krait]

Alas! *dramatic swoon, ruined by giggling*

that was the only semi-reliable way to find stories where they actually sat down and talked about their issues and their similarities

I suspect that this is probably how I got into that pairing in the first place. :D My burning need for Snape to find someone to commiserate with and/or have to recognise as being in a similar position is no small driving force. *grin*

(I misinterpreted your sentence on first reading, and was thus thinking about teacher/student and discussions of boundary issues, and, well. I think part of why I like pairings with power differentials is that it sets up a situation wherein those people have to actually sit down and talk about things; and that's something I really enjoy in fic. If they're 'equals', there's a lot more of the "well, I kissed her and she didn't say no" approach to relationship building, which is not nearly as fun to me!)

[domarzione]

I had to learn to stop being defensive and snarky and start being gracious about these types of comments, which in my case are usually "I never read/like genfic, but this is good!"

I know they are normally meant to be compliments, although with the presentation, sometimes I do wonder if it sounded better in their heads than in the comments box. It's occasionally really hard to parse out the "your story was worth me leaving my comfort zone to read" intent from the "holy @$$%, here's an actual awesome story in this genre that I usually HATE LIKE BURNING because EVERYTHING ALWAYS SUCKS!" actual words.

(I've written over a hundred stories in this fandom, all of them in this genre. I'm sorry you thought the other 99 sucked like a Hoover, but I'm glad you liked this one.)

[edenfalling]

There is never enough long, plotty genfic in the world. Sad but true. (Which reminds me that I keep forgetting to comment on "Freezer Burn" -- it's such an awesome story and I love your portrayal of Steve and SHIELD, not to mention the rest of the Avengers and how realistic you make their lives feel despite the inherent over-the-top nature of the Marvel Universe in any incarnation. *makes note*)

I wonder if part of the problem is the way the internet flattens tone and leaves only the bare words. It's probably all too easy to write something intended as a compliment and not realize how it may be read without body language and tone of voice to make the reviewer's (presumable) enthusiasm obvious. And yeah, if X is all a person writes, a comment about usually disliking X but in this one case...! can definitely come off badly. :-(

[krait]

The internet's lack of tone is part of it, but - this is a verbal construction I see used in real life, too, in ways where people ought to realise the undertones.

"You're not like other girls" is the most egregious example I can think of. (This is a 'flattering' 'compliment' that amounts to "Women are contemptible, but you earn my approval by being unexpectedly human.")

People have said this to my face (in the 'complimentary' phrasing), and are always surprised when I don't agree with them. (I'm sorry you prefer to invent a special category just for me rather than acknowledge that women aren't a monolithic subhuman entity! Not.)

[domarzione]

... I think you just commented on Freezer Burn. :) Although I can be a greedy diva and demand that you expand on that sentiment in the proper forum, but I'm not really that girl. (I totally am, but I'm usually polite enough to not do that.)

Internet flattens tone, but it also... it's the false intimacy issue, too, I think. People I've never spoken to or "spoken to" make word and tone choices that would be completely readable to anyone who interacts with them on a regular basis but out of the blue come across as crass and rude. Also, the community thing, especially in fandom, where like is drawn to like. We forget that everyone doesn't share our views about politics/genre/that pairing/that kink and start speaking without considering that there may be an outlier among us and the assumptions cannot be taken for granted.

Of course, sometimes people just don't think before speaking no matter what the medium.

[lexicology]

Ehh, I'd probably lean toward mildly flattered/pleased in most cases (...your most recent review was just plain weird and kinda rude, though). I'm pretty sure that the only time *I'd* use the "don't usually like X, but" phrasing is when I meant something along the lines of, "Hey, this is the first time I've seen X presented in a way that makes *sense* to me! Thanks!" And, looking at the other comments, I can see how that *could* read problematically if the author writes a lot of X. On the other hand, if I'm reading *that* far out of my comfort zone, it's usually because the author is one follow relentlessly and have a huge amount of trust in, so I don't *think* I've ever pulled that before.

[edenfalling]

I agree that most people who use the "I don't usually like X, but..." phrasing do mean it as a compliment, and it IS a compliment to one's writing skill. It's just kind of a backhanded one -- at least the way I experience it; YMMV, of course! -- since it is based on an implicit negative judgment of one's choice of writing subject. Now, maybe it's a judgment that the reviewer has now realized was overly hasty or based on insufficient evidence (the "and now you have opened my eyes to wonderful new things and I realize that X is actually pretty neat" predicate), but sometimes it's a judgment the reviewer continues to hold (the "and I still don't like X though in this one instance you were able to get past my general dislike" predicate).

I react much more negatively to criticisms of my choice of writing subject than to criticisms of my writing skill. The latter can be fixed, you see, but the former... well, the former is a matter of taste and taste is not something that either can or should be 'fixed,' so I dislike the implication that I am Doing It Wrong in that area. *shrug*

[snacky]

I tend to be flattered because, frankly, I don't receive very many comments, so I am pleased when I get any.

That said, I try to assume good intentions on the part of the commenter - I know I have seen so many people say, "I never know what to say!" and I've certainly had that experience when I've finished a wonderful story of "oh, anything I could say would pale in comparison to the greatness of this story, I'll sound like a fool, etc." So I figure most people are just doing their best and if it sounds a bit awkward, oh well, I can sympathize.

Tangent: I also find that people tend to read a story/comment about what they want to see in it, as opposed to what I put in it. I have received a few comments on several different stories where people talk about how lovely and shippy it was for their OTP, or how it's their favorite trope, and it... really wasn't. But hey, they enjoyed it, so I'm okay with that.

Anyway, I said I assume good intentions, for the most part. I find it's really clear what comments are meant as a "fuck you" as opposed to a compliment, but that's just me.

[edenfalling]

Oh god, yeah, the "Help, such an awesome story deserves equally awesome feedback, what do I say, oh noes!!!" feeling. I know that feeling well. (It is one reason I am deeply, deeply grateful for the kudos button on AO3, since that lets me at least signal that I read and enjoyed the story rather than lurking in complete silence.)

I have definitely noticed that every person reads a different story, no matter how hard the writer tries to be clear. And yeah, at least they enjoyed what they read, even if it wasn't what I thought I was writing. *wry*